Hi all,

Sorry to start yet another ADS-B discussion, but I'm wondering about the value of it to a glider that doesn't fly in airspace that requires it. I have a Mode S transponder, so I believe I will continue to be 'visible' to both ATC and TCAS systems. (I am flying through some areas that are commonly used as approach corridors for a Bravo airpspace.)

ADS-B is supposed to increase the precision and allow ATC to route more aircraft in the same space. Am I wrong in thinking that it could be more advantageous to have only Mode S, and perhaps be given a bit more separation from inbound heavies?

Thanks,
-Greg

On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 9:56:30 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Sorry to start yet another ADS-B discussion, but I'm wondering about the value of it to a glider that doesn't fly in airspace that requires it. I have a Mode S transponder, so I believe I will continue to be 'visible' to both ATC and TCAS systems. (I am flying through some areas that are commonly used as approach corridors for a Bravo airpspace.)
>
> ADS-B is supposed to increase the precision and allow ATC to route more aircraft in the same space. Am I wrong in thinking that it could be more advantageous to have only Mode S, and perhaps be given a bit more separation from inbound heavies?
>
> Thanks,
> -Greg

Greg,
I installed ADS-B out and fly right next to the Chicago B-airspace. Lots of GA traffic is skirting that big area on it's Western boundary, right where we fly. I want to be visible to those GA pilots, many of whom are getting ADS-B out but more importantly IN. ATC is way too busy to deal with us and we are normally not on an ATC frequency anyway. Jet traffic going into local business airports such as Aurora, DeKalb, Joliet, DuPage, Rockford are low and fast when flying next to us.
Herb

Greg, your mode S transponder will display your N number, your altitude, and your squawk on ATC radar, it will display your position and how high or low you are on TCAS equipped aircraft (ex. 2000 above or below) and it will display your position and altitude on ADS-B in equipped aircraft.

If you have flarm, you should be able to see ADS-B out equipped aircraft on your flarm display with a limited range of 5-6 miles. (Oudie, flarmview etc)

On Saturday, January 26, 2019 at 12:51:52 AM UTC-5, Don Grillo wrote:
> Greg, your mode S transponder will display your N number, your altitude, and your squawk on ATC radar, it will display your position and how high or low you are on TCAS equipped aircraft (ex. 2000 above or below) and it will display your position and altitude on ADS-B in equipped aircraft.
>
> If you have flarm, you should be able to see ADS-B out equipped aircraft on your flarm display with a limited range of 5-6 miles. (Oudie, flarmview etc)

A Mode-S equipped glider without ADS-B OUT will only show up on ADS-B IN equipped aircraft if the glider is within ATC radar coverage AND if the other aircraft is ADS-B OUT equipped AND is within range on an ADS-B ground station.

If you are flying at relatively low altitudes in remote areas, neither of these conditions may be met. Equipping the glider with ADS-B OUT makes you visible to all dual frequency ADS-B IN equipped aircraft in your vicinity.

Remember that PowerFlarm equipped gliders will not see ADS-B OUT UAT equipped aircraft, so you are only seeing a subset of the traffic out there.

On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 6:25:37 AM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Saturday, January 26, 2019 at 12:51:52 AM UTC-5, Don Grillo wrote:
> > Greg, your mode S transponder will display your N number, your altitude, and your squawk on ATC radar, it will display your position and how high or low you are on TCAS equipped aircraft (ex. 2000 above or below) and it will display your position and altitude on ADS-B in equipped aircraft.
> >
> > If you have flarm, you should be able to see ADS-B out equipped aircraft on your flarm display with a limited range of 5-6 miles. (Oudie, flarmview etc)
>
> A Mode-S equipped glider without ADS-B OUT will only show up on ADS-B IN equipped aircraft if the glider is within ATC radar coverage AND if the other aircraft is ADS-B OUT equipped AND is within range on an ADS-B ground station.
>
> If you are flying at relatively low altitudes in remote areas, neither of these conditions may be met. Equipping the glider with ADS-B OUT makes you visible to all dual frequency ADS-B IN equipped aircraft in your vicinity..
>
> Remember that PowerFlarm equipped gliders will not see ADS-B OUT UAT equipped aircraft, so you are only seeing a subset of the traffic out there.

A interesting fact about adding ADS-B out is that it augments Flarm when you are using the Flarmnet database. You are broadcasting your Mode S hex code so when a Flarm in another ship receives the ADS-B signal from your ship it associates the hex code with your contest ID and displays it as such. It essentially makes your Flarm significantly more powerful. Pilots have reported seeing my contest ID at 50 miles +. It took a bit of thought on my part to understand how Flarm was that powerful. In fact it was ADS-B out with Flarmnet associating my hex code with my contest ID.

I am a fan of ADS-B out and have been very pleased with my installation. Like Herb mentioned about Chicago airspace, when flying out of Boulder we are regularly crossing DIA arriving and departing traffic.

Bob

Mike posted exactly what I would have said... if skirting busy airspace I would want ADS-B Out for direct visibility to GA and mid-range aircraft (the big guys have TCAS and see your transponder in all situations).

If you are flying near busy airspace are there be cases where post 2020 airspace access will matter to you, like flying over the top of Class C but below 10,000’?

Details always matter. My question would be what Mode S transponder do you have and is your glider type certified or experimental.

If you have a Trig TT22 in an experimental glider then your fully 2020 compliant ADS-B Out install may cost you several hundred dollars for a TN72, pitot switch, and install work, or if that is not the case you could be looking at several thousand and more install hassles.

I was flying wave southeast of Albuquerque today and decided to call
Approach to let them know I was there.Â* As soon as he heard my call
sign, he said, "Radar Contact".Â* My ADS-B Out transmits my N-number
among other things in the message.Â* Before the ADS-B installation, I
would have to squawk a discrete code after making contact before I would
be radar identified.Â* For the duration of the flight Approach vectored
airliners around me and gave me traffic reports.

On 1/27/2019 5:23 PM, Bob Caldwell (BC) wrote:
> On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 6:25:37 AM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 26, 2019 at 12:51:52 AM UTC-5, Don Grillo wrote:
>>> Greg, your mode S transponder will display your N number, your altitude, and your squawk on ATC radar, it will display your position and how high or low you are on TCAS equipped aircraft (ex. 2000 above or below) and it will display your position and altitude on ADS-B in equipped aircraft.
>>>
>>> If you have flarm, you should be able to see ADS-B out equipped aircraft on your flarm display with a limited range of 5-6 miles. (Oudie, flarmview etc)
>> A Mode-S equipped glider without ADS-B OUT will only show up on ADS-B IN equipped aircraft if the glider is within ATC radar coverage AND if the other aircraft is ADS-B OUT equipped AND is within range on an ADS-B ground station.
>>
>> If you are flying at relatively low altitudes in remote areas, neither of these conditions may be met. Equipping the glider with ADS-B OUT makes you visible to all dual frequency ADS-B IN equipped aircraft in your vicinity.
>>
>> Remember that PowerFlarm equipped gliders will not see ADS-B OUT UAT equipped aircraft, so you are only seeing a subset of the traffic out there.
> A interesting fact about adding ADS-B out is that it augments Flarm when you are using the Flarmnet database. You are broadcasting your Mode S hex code so when a Flarm in another ship receives the ADS-B signal from your ship it associates the hex code with your contest ID and displays it as such. It essentially makes your Flarm significantly more powerful. Pilots have reported seeing my contest ID at 50 miles +. It took a bit of thought on my part to understand how Flarm was that powerful. In fact it was ADS-B out with Flarmnet associating my hex code with my contest ID.
>
> I am a fan of ADS-B out and have been very pleased with my installation. Like Herb mentioned about Chicago airspace, when flying out of Boulder we are regularly crossing DIA arriving and departing traffic.
>
> Bob

--
Dan, 5J

BTW the premise that only having transponder would mean that ATC would give larger separation around you is wrong, and a dangerous idea. You are (likely) not talking to ATC and not under their control (flight following would not count) and none of the close sequence future possible use of ADS-B would apply. They certainly don’t apply today where your approach/TRACON controllers likely cannot even tell you have ADS-B Out vs. a Transponder seen via SSR.

There is no scenario where equipping with ADS-B Out *reduces* safety.... or well OK as with many of these things if pilots think they are a silver bullet and rely on the traffic warnings too much and stop looking... but I hope that is awfully rare.

On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 7:56:30 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Sorry to start yet another ADS-B discussion, but I'm wondering about the value of it to a glider that doesn't fly in airspace that requires it. I have a Mode S transponder, so I believe I will continue to be 'visible' to both ATC and TCAS systems. (I am flying through some areas that are commonly used as approach corridors for a Bravo airpspace.)
>
> ADS-B is supposed to increase the precision and allow ATC to route more aircraft in the same space. Am I wrong in thinking that it could be more advantageous to have only Mode S, and perhaps be given a bit more separation from inbound heavies?
>
> Thanks,
> -Greg

Thanks all, great info. I do have a TT22, but a certified glider, so I would need the more expensive GPS.

And I have spoken with ATC and they've seen my N-Number form just the TT22 mode S. Most recently, they called positive radar contact without asking for an ident or squawk.

I was under the impression that ADS-B in aircraft would see a mode S transponder as PowerFlarm does. If that's really not the case, that's probably reason enough to spring for the GPS.

And lastly, PowerFlarm sees ModeS transponders, is there really a class of ADS-B out traffice that PowerFlarm doesn't see?

It is time to correct the misconception that powerflarm “sees� mode S transponder. It is more like sensing, not seeing. Powerflarm only gives you an alert that there is a transponder equipped aircraft somewhere nearby with an estimate distance and altitude difference. It does not tell you where the aircraft is or where it is heading. Better than nothing but a far cry from flarm and 1090 ADSB which provides exact position, heading and collision alarm.

Ramy

PowerFLARM PCAS sees mode C and S transponders, as badly as Ramy describes. PowerFLARM does not see UAT direct and cannot decode ADS-R or TIS-B messages, so you will not see that traffic even if you have ADS-B Out to make your glider a client for ADS-R and TIS-B ground based services.

Future products from FLARM OEMs may improve that, but the story there seems much more of a mess than I hoped it would be. Maybe more on that later, elsewhere on r.a.s.

If you want to see all that stuff today you need a separate receiver and display like one of the GA oriented EFB applications, like ForeFlight on an iPad or iPhone.

But... having ADS-B Out is a big step... it makes your glider visible to all those GA aircraft in lots of situations... many folks who have ADS-B In today have dual-link receivers that will see you regardless of whether they have ADS-B Out or are within TIS-B service coverage.

And there is no other ADS-B In system in use in the USA except PowerFLARM that has a PCAS like capability. ADS-B TIS-B that Mike and I have mentioned here several times is more complex and you need to go read about that to understand the limitations of where/when it works. Mike mentioned the limitations already, and I have posted similar comments many times on r.a.s. But again TIS-B is academic if you are using a PowerFLARM receiver, the European folks involved in developing PowerFLARM just did not implement support for it.

The February issue of Soaring Mag will have an article on my installation of ADS-B out in my DG-303. If you go to FlightAware you can see one of my flight traces from the region 7 contest. N701HR https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N701HR

That's pretty cool, but I'm having difficulties with the program.Â* I
entered my tail number (N995J) from yesterday's flight and got nothing.Â*
I entered the tail number of our C-180 and got a flight from June,
2018.Â* I've flown both aircraft quite a bit, so what am I missing?Â* Do I
need to have had a filed flight plan or had requested flight following?Â*
I also entered my home airport (0E0) and got nothing.

On 1/28/2019 6:31 AM, wrote:
> The February issue of Soaring Mag will have an article on my installation of ADS-B out in my DG-303. If you go to FlightAware you can see one of my flight traces from the region 7 contest. N701HR https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N701HR

--
Dan, 5J

And BTW, I have a basic account and was logged on.

On 1/28/2019 10:28 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> That's pretty cool, but I'm having difficulties with the program.Â* I
> entered my tail number (N995J) from yesterday's flight and got
> nothing.Â* I entered the tail number of our C-180 and got a flight from
> June, 2018.Â* I've flown both aircraft quite a bit, so what am I
> missing?Â* Do I need to have had a filed flight plan or had requested
> flight following?Â* I also entered my home airport (0E0) and got nothing.
>
> On 1/28/2019 6:31 AM, wrote:
>> The February issue of Soaring Mag will have an article on my
>> installation of ADS-B out in my DG-303. If you go to FlightAware you
>> can see one of my flight traces from the region 7 contest. N701HR
>> https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N701HR
>

--
Dan, 5J